Rob Petrozzo x The Future of Fandom

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Adam Conner (01:06):

All right, Rob. How are you? Wonderful to have you on the show.

Rob Petrozzo (01:22):

Adam, what’s up, man? Thank you for having me, dude. Appreciate it.

Adam Conner (01:25):

I’ve chatted with a ton of folks in fintech and broadly within investing for this show, but you’re one of the earliest entrances to the world among those with whom I’ve spoken. And just before we got on here, we were talking about just how we think alike and also how even the concept of this show we’re doing, The Future of Fandom, very much applies to the ways in which you’ve built the audience over the years.

Adam Conner (01:49):

Now, before we get into the nitty gritty of that, because it’s interesting to me and our listeners, let’s just start with a very brief description of Rally for those who don’t know. I assume most of them do. And also, why you founded it, what pulled you into this world so soon?

Rob Petrozzo (02:02):

Yeah. That’s a good intro, and it’s also true in that fandom is also something that we’ve always thought about from day one. When we started this platform, the long and short of it is that it’s intended to let regular people buy and sell fractional equity in unique, often one-of-a-kind assets that have a lot of historical and cultural significance.

Rob Petrozzo (02:20):

So every week we run initial offerings, which are kind of our version of an IPO. And that allows investors of all income levels to purchase shares of assets similar to the way you might buy shares of stock, and then we do that with no minimums and no commission. And then we also facilitate a secondary market for those assets to register broker dealers within the app, that allows you to access liquidity daily during market hours, so you can buy and sell based on bid ask after the initial offering runs.

Rob Petrozzo (02:45):

So really, it’s about taking these really unique assets that have great history, great stories. We do our best to tell that story within the app, then we allow you to own real equity in it and really put it into a portfolio. So for us, when we founded it, myself and my co-founders Chris and Max, we always talk about it as these missed opportunities are what led us to put this idea on paper.

Rob Petrozzo (03:04):

So Chris, my co-founder I’ve known forever, one of my oldest friends, also one of my smartest friends. He’s always really loved classic cars, but the idea of owning the one that he wanted meant making the decision to spend all of your money, and go get money, and live your whole life sort of working to find this one million dollar thing. When in reality, there are these millions of consumers everywhere, and these millions of enthusiasts in classic cars and in baseball cards, and in dinosaur fossils, and in NFTs, and all the things that are on Rally now, these 20 different asset classes. They know everything about it. They know what the best ones are. They feel like they can see around those turns, but owning real equity and the best versions is impossible without owning the whole thing.

Rob Petrozzo (03:44):

So we saw the ability to take what existed, that fandom that existed around these spaces, and to allow regular people to get equity for 10 or 15 or $20, the same way you might buy stock and put the best version in your portfolio. So that, for us, was always the motivation. And when we started in 2017, I don’t think that we envisioned the world changing as dramatically as it did, to understanding what alternative assets were, but now we’re in a place that we’re able to bring awesome stuff that people really care about it every week.

Adam Conner (04:11):

Yeah. I’m so glad that you’re here then to talk with us about this, because of course listeners to the show will know that we’ve spoken to a couple of players here, but really folks who are just starting to trickle into it, either the executives themselves or the businesses themselves. You’ve been here since 2017, which was very, very early in all of this.

Adam Conner (04:33):

Technically, I know the first I think NFT was made around 2014. 2017, the first, first early adopters really started to jump in, so quite prescient that you should make a platform that was based around these broad alternatives. And you’re right. The folks that are going to do well are those who are broadly diversified in their investments. You can extend of course that philosophy to all sorts of asset classes.

Adam Conner (04:57):

Now, because of that, that being your breadth of coverage here, my guess is that since 2017 lots of things have changed, both about the offerings and the people who take up on those offerings. What are the most predominant trends that you believe have stayed consistent since that time, and which are new? And then I want to ask about those you think are dying away, but I’m going to start with the ones that have been the mainstays and the newest.

Rob Petrozzo (05:26):

Yeah. The real heart of all this, I think, and the big trend is not even necessarily asset based. If you had a hundred people on earth right now, one of those would control 50% of the wealth. I think that wealth inequality and that wealth gap is something that over the last … when we first had the idea, 2015, we started putting it on paper, seven years ago, between then and now, people have started to understand that in a way more real way, and the conversation around money has changed so dramatically.

Rob Petrozzo (05:53):

Our comfort with talking about money, just like the general how much my salary is or talking to your friend about what they’re spending their money on or the investments that they’re making, and the ability to broadcast those investments and have conversations with the tribe and with the community that cares about the same way as you, that’s this giant fundamental shift.

Rob Petrozzo (06:09):

And I think it was happening over the course of the last decade with the proliferation of more of the investment tools for retail investors, starting with the E trades of the world, leading into Robin hood and Coinbase and all the asset classes that everyone knows they can invest in now. And the conversations that kids have with their parents about NFTs. All that has kind of changed obviously and become way more commonplace. That all really accelerated during COVID. And I think it’s impossible to ignore what that did for so many different types of investments, and in terms of access to information, it changed dramatically during COVID.

Rob Petrozzo (06:38):

So what we saw in the opportunity that existed for Rally was always that the future would involve you investing and putting your money into things you care about and not necessarily as discretionary purchase. As a true in investment and true equity. The understanding of equity has changed so dramatically over the last six or seven years since we started this business, that now trying to explain to somebody that a baseball card could be an investment or a blue chip NFT could be an investment, even though that’s so relatively new, compared to everything else in the platform.

Rob Petrozzo (07:08):

It’s not as hard as it once was. It’s as easy to tell somebody, “You can get a real return on a Michael Jordan rookie card or on a vintage first edition book, a first edition copy of Harry Potter for example. You can get the same or better returns or be a part of a conversation about real equity with those assets, the same way you might 401k or a stock or a real estate even.” I think that’s what’s changed so dramatically. And we’ve seen that kind of become commonplace and obviously never investment advice, but I think people have kind of taken it upon themselves to find the asset classes that matter to them. And they’ve seen returns there as well.

Adam Conner (07:42):

I’ve certainly seen it. The offerings have obviously broadened, that they are available now on your platform and I can’t help but think of the skepticism that came with what I had experienced as the first wave of collectible hype. This is all the way back in the ’90s. This is a real legacy description, but we’re talking Beanie Baby era. What have you seen happen to the skepticism around these alternative investments, between 2017 and now? Of course they’ve become more accepted, but have those skeptical voices gotten quieter or are they just the same volume drowned out by those enthusiasts that are getting involved with them?

Rob Petrozzo (08:25):

Yeah, that’s a great way to put it.

“I think that [skepticism] always exists. And I think that people are inherently scared of what they don’t understand. The things we find comforting are the ones that we overindex, and that’s just human nature. And the things that you’re uncomfortable with, it’s really easy to say, “That’s wrong.” And to take a really serious stance against the things that you don’t understand. And I think that’s happened throughout history with every investment. There was a time, not that long ago where stocks were deemed too risky and everything was bonds.”

— Rob Petrozzo (8:27)

Rob Petrozzo (08:51):

And then things start to change and [inaudible 00:08:52] come out. And that’s the thing that everybody looks at and goes, “Oh no, that’s never going to be a thing. It’s too risky.” And now real estate that, all that stuff, it makes up a significant portion of the way of the S&P. The same thing happened with crypto. The same thing happened with NFTs.

Rob Petrozzo (09:04):

I think what’s happened that’s changed all of that, is that the voice of a collective group and the ability to share that voice has gotten so dramatically larger to drown out those voices, because passion, it gives you power and it really levels the playing field a bit. And at the most basic level, it’s something you can bring to any conversation. At a higher level, it’s how you find actual joy. And then you can make smart investments from that joy, and you can find other people who feel the same way.

Rob Petrozzo (09:28):

And I think that’s what’s helped Rally for sure, but helped a lot of platforms who are really keen on that passion and turn it into real equity. I think it starts with the fact that so many people are having the conversation now to drown out some of the naysayers or the voices that are always going to be there, because those are people who don’t understand why somebody would invest in first edition literature. Why would you put that into a portfolio? That’s a thing. But when you see all these people talking about it and finding all that joy from it, it’s impossible to ignore at this point.

Adam Conner (09:53):

Yeah. And it’s something which I would’ve initially assumed to be just the property of the elite, right? Who invests in art? Well, people who have money to buy their own island, where they keep that art. Something like that certainly has been more democratized now, to anybody and listeners, you don’t have to be on Rally right now. We hope you get there, but you don’t have to be on there right now to understand that these people who are really enthusiastic about this, their energy is electric and magnetic.

Adam Conner (10:21):

These investments have not only gone through and they’re maybe approaching the top of a hype cycle, who knows. But their value has also gone up considerably. And with that, you got to follow that money a little bit, comes other voices and people curious about this world. Mainly the government. Talking about regulation here for a second, Rob. I know that these asset classes have exploded, speculation on them has exploded. And so too has buzz about regulations. Now, obviously you’ve mentioned earlier that nothing that we’re saying here is investment advice, but as a brand operator, how does tightening regulations around these instruments affect your ability to actively speak the message that Rally is trying to give?

Rob Petrozzo (11:34):

We’ve been as transparent as we possibly can be with them at every step. And they’ve kind of taken it upon themselves to go to work and go to bat for us. What’s happening on the other side is that from a marketing perspective, we work with broker dealers who help us transact a lot of these individual assets. And they’re the ones that put their stamp for approval and go through the KYC process and all that, is all part of the platform.

Rob Petrozzo (11:55):

But it’s also a situation where we’re not in a position to … we don’t want to, when we’re not legally allowed to really promote these assets, the same way you might see some nonsense NFT project that’s being pushed on Instagram by some B list celebrity. We would never do that. That’s not a world we live in, because we really think about these as true investments. But also there’s a lot of passion and a lot of information around these assets and the group around them are the ones that tell the story, the most appropriate and most effective way. And that’s our user base. We always, and each of these assets is essentially a regulated security.

Rob Petrozzo (12:25):

So each of these are qualified by the SEC. They’re Reggae Plus offerings, which was part of the Jobs Act, which was from almost a decade ago at this point. But when Reggae Plus came out, the goal was to sort of bridge that wealth gap. And it was a measure taken to allow for regular people to be involved in some of the assets and the investments that only the wealthy had access to, where a platform that’s really about bringing more of that to life and working with the SEC and with the regulators to make sure that we’re doing that in the most appropriate, possible way.

Rob Petrozzo (12:55):

And that’s also a big differentiator for us too. I think NFTs and the unregulated marketplaces that are continuing to come out, we don’t want to be on the wrong side of that. And I think that a lot of people will find themselves on the wrong side of it eventually. Working within the confines sometimes is a little bit rigid of the SEC and of the regulatory bodies, but it also allows us to sort of protect ourselves and protect investors in the most viable possible way. So, that’s always been a working relationship that we make sure is above board.

Adam Conner (13:18):

Well, it’s a relationship that you have to work at these days, especially as that skepticism, maybe doesn’t necessarily get louder in aggregate, but certainly within various projects that end up getting rugged or things which are obviously scams. As you mentioned, are easy pickings for celebrities and influencers, not so much for the actual investors of those things. So it seems to me that the way that you’re able to speak loudly is through those fans.

Adam Conner (13:49):

And of course, this is great not only for this show, but I have approached this topic over the last several years, listeners even before this podcast. And so that’s what gets me excited, because you have created fans, you have probably created super fans and those people are very socially loud. And while maybe you can’t do as much active promotion of what you offer as possible, as you’d like rather, these super fans are the ones who can just outside of your sphere of influence.

Adam Conner (14:19):

How do you set up either Rally or them, to be able to spread that message? How do you empower them to be able to be loud? I would think that’s some of the best ways to do it. Certainly some of the most authentic ways to do it, assuming you can stay on the right side of those influencer endorsements and all that. But I’m curious, because you’ve done it well, you’ve just said to yourself, not so much on the marketing side, you’ve had to do, luckily. How have you maintained that?

Rob Petrozzo (14:48):

Yeah. I think the stories of each asset and we always at those as like the celebrities. So it’s, you can have someone that you pay a hundred thousand dollars to go all over Instagram and put it on their story and hashtag it as an ad. Or you can build something that people really care about and then link it to the story of the asset. So whether it’s the Honus Wagner card, which is the Holy Grail of baseball cards, and we have one on Rally. Or it’s a dinosaur fossil from millions and millions of years ago. Or it’s a NASA, some sort of NASA vintage, something from Apollo 11, from a space shuttle. Those all have these stories that we do our best to tell inside the app, as it’s own kind of mini editorial.

“The difference between us and a regular investment platform, is that finance is inherently a zero sum game. And it’s like make money by any means. And there’s sometimes nuance to it. But, and I think everyone wants to do the right thing in some capacity, but experiential value has been looked at as the polar opposite of investment value forever. And that’s why Tesla feels way different as a stock than it does as a car company. And that’s why Elon Musk, when he’s tweeting and going crazy people, aren’t like, “Oh, he’s talking about cars right now.” He’s talking about the experience and everything around it. And he’s very, very opinionated. That’s part of the story that he tells and the story that his tribe tells, that everybody who’s in that cult to Tesla is going to tell that story for better or worse in the same voice as Elon Musk.”

 — Rob Petrozzo (15:26)

Rob Petrozzo (16:06):

What we try to do on Rally is that we take these assets that are really celebrities in their own right, we put the story inside the app, and then it’s up to you to spread that as you want. Certain assets will get more attention than others. Certain stories will get more attention than others. We’ll put a quick Tweet out that tells that story and a threat maybe, or gives a link to something else that is on YouTube, that shows a video from the moment it was used. But then it’s up to the users. They’re the ones that amplify that content on our behalf, because it’s that interesting, it’s that unique. And we’ve always tried to find the best possible assets to help tell the story without us having to do it. And it’s worked to this point.

Adam Conner (16:38):

Got any favorites among the times in which it has worked?

Rob Petrozzo (16:42):

Yeah. I mean the NFTs are a really, really good example. I think that’s a world that it’s got momentum all its own, and it’s a massive, massive divergence from everything we’ve seen in finance at this point and the way people talk about it. We launched our first NFT, it was a crypto punk, which now has taken a little bit of a hit since the real run up a few months ago when crypto punks were looked at as one of the earliest NFT projects and they’re the ones that gain the most celebrity attention. That was all happening in the ecosystem outside of Rally. We acquired our first crypto punk really well, where by the time we ran the initial offering at $72,000, the floor for that particular NFT, the cheapest price that any of them were for sale was closer to $200,000.

Rob Petrozzo (17:25):

So at that point, you had this mechanism where everyone looked at it as an arbitrage opportunity that was investing on Rally. It was also the first NFT that we brought to Rally. It was before the peak of NFTs, where you are allowing users to use their insight and see around that turn and empower them to make a decision really early into a space. But also the biggest difference with the way NFTs work on Rally versus the way they work if you were to buy from OpenSea from one of the third party platforms, is that it doesn’t require you to own crypto, or to have a wallet, or to have a seed phrase tucked away somewhere, or to have a ledger. It doesn’t require you to link a wallet when you get to a separate website.

Rob Petrozzo (17:59):

It’s the same transaction you make by buying anything. You’re linking an ACH or a bank account, and then making a one click purchase. I think that was the big differentiator, doing it with NFTs, doing it with an under priced NFT, and then doing it with one that was a Marque Blue Chip NFT, doing it really early, putting that out on Twitter. One, saying it’s going to be live and a week was enough to generate the type of interest that we had never seen before from any offering. And that was one of the best days, in terms of new investors, in terms of engagement, in terms of every measurable metric on Rally, the day that offering went live for that crypto punk.

Rob Petrozzo (18:28):

And then we had this little mechanism at the end of each offering, where once you make your investment, you get a little shareable card that says, “You’re in,” and has an image. It talks about a little bit about what that asset is, and it goes to Twitter or Instagram and your social media accounts. And that was the most we’d ever seen anything shared from the platform ever, was after that offering was done. So now you have three, 4,000 people who own this really unique, significant NFT. And they’re able to talk about it and be a part of this group that felt really closed off beforehand.

Rob Petrozzo (18:55):

I think that for us, it was a big win, but it was a bigger win for investors and for the people who were able to get their first NFT on Rally, of which 70, 80% or something like that when we did our user surveys had bought their first NFT on Rally. So anytime we could do something like that, where we’re hitting on the zeitgeist as part of a cultural moment, but we’re able to sort of break down the barriers to entry in such a way that makes you part of something you weren’t sure you could be a part of. That’s when it takes off on its own. And that was a really good example of it.

Adam Conner (19:22):

Gosh, I’d say so. To be able to issue this, can we call it literally a status symbol, to folks who had gotten in on this. Anybody who … listeners again, you should go on Rally, but whether you’re there or not, if you’ve seen anything on Twitter about the latest shoe drop, I think the sneakers app does this, doesn’t it? When they get it, don’t they give you an image that you can share that says, “I got it,” or something with the picture?

Rob Petrozzo (19:45):

Yeah, I’ll be honest. There are certain growth mechanics that it’s easier to think about what others have done successfully than reinvent the wheel. That’s where we took it from. That was … when I first started designing the first version of the app, it was one of those things where it’s like sneaker culture. Is diverging right now with investment culture. They’re all part of the same thing.

Adam Conner (20:26):

Yeah, totally. That is something that now that I’ve heard it and seen it elsewhere, and I have this duh moment where I’m wondering why others don’t do it. But maybe it’s because they aren’t like you. Now I have a question then to round us out, because that’s certainly novel. Creating shareable pieces of the experience is a way in which you can continue to grow this fandom, especially outside your four walls.

Adam Conner (20:56):

But as we stated towards the top, you were early to this broader alternative world, all the way back in 2017. Today, there are plenty of services out there. We’ve had a few on this show, dipping their toes into that world. It’s crowding, thus I’m curious as it crowds, what will the elements of a world class experience on one of these apps, yours or somebody else’s but hopefully yours? What will it look like in the future?

Rob Petrozzo (21:29):

Yeah, that’s a good question. I think it’s one of those things where kids always kind of want to do what adults do. When you’re young, you seen adults doing something you want to do it. And adults are always going to chase what kids are doing and that if you make good products for either one of those, you’re usually good. I think something like Rally and where a lot of the big ideas are going to come from, are things that hit on both, where somebody gets to plan for their future and invest in a way that’s really interesting while they’re young. But if you’ve seen a few things and you know a few of these plays that are coming to life right now, you can put your money where your mouth is. That’s what we did really well.

Rob Petrozzo (21:59):

I think the amount of ideas that are kind of coming to life and the supply coming to market is moving at a pace right now that we’ve never seen before. But the pace of innovation and the pace at which information sticks is also increasing exponentially. And that pace is relentless right now. So really, it’s a matter of in my mind, it’s a lot, it’s going to be, and it is right now, a lot more of quantity with quality. So it’s one of those things where you can’t really sacrifice both right now. I think a lot of what we’re going to see is that when those communities get built and the fandom gets built around a lot of these communities and you have a product that hits on all those points, where kids love it, adults love it and it’s also moving quick.

Rob Petrozzo (22:34):

It’s hard to deny that in a space that we’re in right now, because it’s one of those things where great ideas come from people, but they’re brought to life by community. And that’s kind of the litmus test. That’s the pass fail. So if you have a good idea, you’re moving quick, you put out in the world, it’s something that allows real sort of investment in community or even things like the way we’ve done it. It’s going to come to life if enough people care about it. I think that’s what we found out in 2017.

Rob Petrozzo (22:54):

And we see it every day now. The more people that care about what you’re doing, the money flows and the ability to make money with the product flows, if you get that community to care about it. But the pace right now, it has to be head down building. That’s the only way to bring things to life right now, because there’s 4,000 kids that are just knocking this out every day right now. They’re going to have a hit just by the numbers. You got to catch up with that right now. We got lucky, in that it was still really early 2016 when we put this on paper. So to get to where we’re at now, was just that relentless pursuit of building things that people care about.

Adam Conner (23:25):

So let me hit you with two more quick hits before we get out of here. The first is that you saw this before most, five or six years ago. Today, as you’ve noted, people are building new projects every single day. If you don’t know exactly what it is, in what vein of thought do you think the next super early future Rally founder is thinking right now? I mean amidst all this noise of projects, what do you think doesn’t get enough attention?

Rob Petrozzo (23:53):

Man, that’s a good question. I think that part of our mission, and I think this should be the mission of everyone who’s working on something new right now. And I think a lot of kids are thinking about this, especially in the NFT space, is building to make money and building a product that solves a need or taking away friction. That was the biggest thing. When Robinhood came out, the idea was like, damn, this UX is seamless. They built something that I’ve never really seen what this looks like before. I’ve seen this movie before, but I’ve never seen it played this way. It was kind of the way it was looked at now. It’s about making things meaningful.

Rob Petrozzo (24:26):

And that’s what we’ve always thought about too, because people care way more about the outcome and the product and the prettiness of it and the aesthetic, and making sure it’s something they could use, but use in a way that it feels shareable and feels like they’re part of something new, way more than they care about the return right now. And that’s from a user perspective. So if you’re building anything right now, if there was a kid right now and I try and talk to as many of the 17, 18, 19 year old builders. And I try and make small seed investments in these founders.

Rob Petrozzo (24:51):

So I see that kind of have that twinkle in their eye a little bit, where they’re thinking about it more, about experience and about making sure people care about what they’re building, than making money on the product early. That’s the be all, end all. That’s what opened up all of Web 3.0. That’s what the idea around NFTs were a real utility. And that’s what the on-ramps look like right now. And that’s why these alternative chains are starting to pop up. And that’s why tokens with shared governance and the way NFTs are looked at, is not just aren’t anymore, they’re part of this remarkable new shift and the way people think.

Rob Petrozzo (25:18):

All that is kids that are building with the experience in mind of making it meaningful and not, I’m going to make a billion dollar company. I think that’s the, my generation has that make the next Facebook and exit. That was always the mentality really early on for anyone in their mid to late 30s. But someone now who’s like 18, 19, they want to make dope shit for their friends right now. They want to make something that everybody cares about as soon as they start using it, and call them up and be like, “Oh, this is awesome. I’m a part of this.” Anyone building right now with that in mind, all the other stuff comes with it. That’s been the real fundamental shift, at least I think I’ve seen over the course of the last five, six years, especially in marketplaces

Adam Conner (25:54):

And hey, the first Facebook was built on that premise. Let me make something cool for my friends.

Rob Petrozzo (25:59):

That’s actually true. I can’t even talk crazy. I’m thinking about it more as like the 2011 Facebook and not the 2004 Facebook. You’re right.

Adam Conner (26:05):

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it. Totally. All right. Let me round out one more. It’s a bit of an inverse question at you, but we’ve talked a whole lot about what you think the future will be. If you could fill this blank for me, I’d be entertained. I, Rob could tell you the listener, that the future of this alternative investment world will definitely not include blank. What is that blank?

Rob Petrozzo (26:27):

Damn, in my mind, it’s going to include everything. So it’s hard to say that. What it won’t include is stepping in front of a moving train. So anyone who’s a naysayer right now to something as simple as NFTs or something as sort of old school as gold, you’re probably making the wrong decision. That’s probably something that you’re going to regret at some point in the next 10 to 20 to 30 years. I think that’s the biggest thing for me, that’s a little bit of a nuanced answer. It’s probably the wrong answer, but that’s the way I think about it.

Adam Conner (26:53):

Well, all of us are sort of guessing at what will be the next biggest, brightest and greatest. Thankfully, you’ve been there since the beginning. So you have a little more directional knowledge than most. And I’m glad that you’ve shared that here with us on the show. So Rob, for telling us the Rally story, thank you so much for predicting the future with us.

Rob Petrozzo (27:12):

Adam, thank you so much, man. I appreciate it.

Adam Conner (27:16):

If you’ve listened all the way through, it’s clear you like podcasts or maybe it’s just us, but in case it’s the former, Rally has a podcast as well. It’s called The Best Money I Ever Spent. Take a listen to their stories as well. They got Gary Vee as the launch guest. This host is a little jealous, I’m not going to lie. Thanks to you, the listener, of course, for exploring the Future of Fandom with us. I’d encourage you to stay connected, subscribe to us wherever you listen to your shows. And you can also find us at livelike.com/podcast and on social LinkedIn @LiveLike and Twitter @LiveLikeInc. I look forward to predicting the future again with your real soon and until then, I’m Adam Conner saying so long and thanks for being a fan.